~oriansj/bootstrappable-wiki

9ba0c1fc0f15e9b46d2cba30da343f8697fe662e — Jeremiah Orians 1 year, 1 month ago ecfc294
Updating emails
1 files changed, 4528 insertions(+), 0 deletions(-)

M bootstrappable.mbox
M bootstrappable.mbox => bootstrappable.mbox +4528 -0
@@ 52349,3 52349,4531 @@ Thanks for your feedback!
Ludo=E2=80=99.


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From: fosslinux <fosslinux@aussies.space>
Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: GNU Autogen 5.18.16 bootstrapped
To: bootstrappable@freelists.org
Cc: schierlm@gmx.de, ludo@gnu.org
References: <833fd6b6-fb1a-32b1-b1a0-7703733d2918@gmx.de>
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Hi Michael, Ludo, list.

On 10/1/22 06:43, Ludovic Court├Ęs wrote:
> Michael Schierl <schierlm@gmx.de> skribis:
> 
>> It was fossy/fosslinux who initially contacted them: 
>> https://logs.guix.gnu.org/bootstrappable/2022-09-27.log#103227
> 
> OK, too bad there are no traces of a public conversation with the Autogen maintainer(s).

I contacted the primary maintainer (Bruce Korb) of Autogen in the hopes that they may have a version of Autogen
that did not have any pregenerated files in the hopes of estabilishing a bootstrap. Unfortunately this was to no avail. 
He was intrigued by the idea but "has largely retired from programming" (including Autogen).

I cannot find any traces of a current maintainer - there hasn't been a proper release for a very long time. Bruce is 
still doing (small) fixes from time to time (~50 commits in the last 6 years). This improvement is pretty substantive so 
I wouldn't be surprised if it was too large for Bruce to have time to look at.

-fossy


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From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@gnu.org>
To: fosslinux <fosslinux@aussies.space>
Cc: bootstrappable@freelists.org,  schierlm@gmx.de
Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: GNU Autogen 5.18.16 bootstrapped
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Hi,

fosslinux <fosslinux@aussies.space> skribis:

> I contacted the primary maintainer (Bruce Korb) of Autogen in the hopes t=
hat they may have a version of Autogen
> that did not have any pregenerated files in the hopes of estabilishing
> a bootstrap. Unfortunately this was to no avail. He was intrigued by
> the idea but "has largely retired from programming" (including
> Autogen).
>
> I cannot find any traces of a current maintainer - there hasn't been a
> proper release for a very long time. Bruce is still doing (small)
> fixes from time to time (~50 commits in the last 6 years). This
> improvement is pretty substantive so I wouldn't be surprised if it was
> too large for Bruce to have time to look at.

Oh, I see.  Bruce is still marked as the official maintainer of Autogen.

In that case it might be that Michael=E2=80=99s branch will become what dis=
tros
package until the situation is sorted out upstream.

Thanks for explaining!

Ludo=E2=80=99.


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Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: GNU Autogen 5.18.16 bootstrapped
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To: bootstrappable@freelists.org
Subject: Re: [bootstrappable] Re: GNU Autogen 5.18.16 bootstrapped
Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2022 11:34:16 +0100
Message-ID: <5254125.b0Ip1mGAha@laptop>
In-Reply-To: <87ilkwaqi9.fsf@gnu.org>
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2022 m. spalio 7 d., penktadienis 11:15:42 BST Ludovic Court=C3=A8s ra=C5=
=A1=C4=97:
> Hi,
>=20
> fosslinux <fosslinux@aussies.space> skribis:
>=20
> > I contacted the primary maintainer (Bruce Korb) of Autogen in the hopes=
 that they may have a version of Autogen
> > that did not have any pregenerated files in the hopes of estabilishing
> > a bootstrap. Unfortunately this was to no avail. He was intrigued by
> > the idea but "has largely retired from programming" (including
> > Autogen).
> >
> > I cannot find any traces of a current maintainer - there hasn't been a
> > proper release for a very long time. Bruce is still doing (small)
> > fixes from time to time (~50 commits in the last 6 years). This
> > improvement is pretty substantive so I wouldn't be surprised if it was
> > too large for Bruce to have time to look at.
>=20
> Oh, I see.  Bruce is still marked as the official maintainer of Autogen.
>=20
> In that case it might be that Michael=E2=80=99s branch will become what d=
istros
> package until the situation is sorted out upstream.

Possibly but there are some complications with it.
Michael does not have Autogen branch right now, it's better described
as a separate build harness for autogen. Maybe a bit like icedtea vs openjd=
k.

I.e. it's a separate repository that clones / downloads autogen,
then patches it, then runs some manual build steps.
I've already added it to live-bootstrap: https://github.com/fosslinux/live-=
bootstrap/blob/master/sysc/autogen-5.18.16/autogen-5.18.16.sh
So distros might follow some similar process.

Andrius

>=20
> Thanks for explaining!
>=20
> Ludo=E2=80=99.
>=20
>=20


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From: Janneke Nieuwenhuizen <janneke@gnu.org>
To: info-gnu@gnu.org
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Subject: [bootstrappable] GNU Mes 0.24.1 released
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Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 10:59:16 +0200
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We are happy to announce the release of GNU Mes 0.24.1, representing 23
commits over five months by four people.

Mes now supports the stage0-posix and M2-Planet Full Source bootstrap on
Aarch64 for ARM.  Because stage0-posix does not support ARM yet, the Mes
ARM bootstrap is currently prototyped on Aarch64.

We are excited that the NlNet Foundation[4] is again sponsoring this
work!

What's next?

Work to prototype this so-called "Full Source Bootstrap" for ARM on
Aarch64 is happening on the wip-aarch64-bootstrap[3] branch.  Also, full
Guile compatible module support, and RISC-V support.

Enjoy!

* About

  GNU Mes[5] is a Scheme interpreter and C compiler for bootstrapping
  the GNU System.  Since version 0.22 it has again helped to halve the
  size of opaque, uninspectable binary seeds that are currently being
  used in the Reduced Binary Seed bootstrap[6] of GNU Guix[7].  The
  final goal is to help create a full source bootstrap as part of the
  bootstrappable builds[8] effort for UNIX-like operating systems.

  The Scheme interpreter is written in ~5,000 LOC of simple C, and the C
  compiler written in Scheme and these are mutual self-hosting.  Mes can
  now be bootstrapped from M2-Planet[9] and Mescc-Tools[10].

  Mes has a Garbage Collector, a library of loadable Scheme modules--
  notably Dominique Boucher's LALR[11], Pre-R6RS portable
  syntax-case[12] with R7RS ellipsis, Matt Wette's Nyacc[13] --and test
  suite, just enough to support a REPL and a C99 compiler: mescc.

  Mes + MesCC + Mes C Library can build a bootstrappable TinyCC[14] that
  is self-hosting.  Using this tcc and the Mes C library we now have a
  Reduced Binary Seed bootstrap for the gnutools triplet: glibc-2.2.5,
  binutils-2.20.1, gcc-2.95.3.  This is enough to bootstrap Guix for
  i686-linux, x86_64-linux, armhf-linux and aarch64-linux.

  Mes is inspired by The Maxwell Equations of Software: LISP-1.5[15] --
  John McCarthy page 13, GNU Guix's source/binary packaging transparency
  and Jeremiah Orians's stage0[16] 357-byte self-hosting hex assembler.

* Download

  git clone git://git.savannah.gnu.org/mes.git

  Here are the compressed sources and a GPG detached signature[*]:
    https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mes/mes-0.24.1.tar.gz
    https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mes/mes-0.24.1.tar.gz.sig

  Use a mirror for higher download bandwidth:
    https://ftpmirror.gnu.org/mes/mes-0.24.1.tar.gz
    https://ftpmirror.gnu.org/mes/mes-0.24.1.tar.gz.sig

  Here are the SHA1 and SHA256 checksums:

  bceaaaf1cafaa31ccb1ee1247ce2dd651a2f67be  mes-0.24.1.tar.gz
  35120ceb0676632e58973355b9f86dff9cc717ed65ed2a17ff5272c59f2a0535  mes-0.2=
4.1.tar.gz

  [*] Use a .sig file to verify that the corresponding file (without the
  .sig suffix) is intact.  First, be sure to download both the .sig file
  and the corresponding tarball.  Then, run a command like this:

    gpg --verify mes-0.24.1.tar.gz.sig

  If that command fails because you don't have the required public key,
  or that public key has expired, try the following commands to update
  or refresh it, and then rerun the 'gpg --verify' command.

    gpg --recv-keys 1A858392E331EAFDB8C27FFBF3C1A0D9C1D65273

* Get informed, get involved

  See https://bootstrappable.org
  Join #bootstrappable on irc.libera.chat

* NEWS
 * Changes in 0.24.1 since 0.24
 ** Build
 *** Support M2-Planet bootstrap for ARM.
 ** MesCC
 *** The Mes C Library now supports bootstrapping ARM.
 ** Noteworthy bug fixes
 *** The definition of S_ISUID was fixed.
 *** Unsigned modulo has been fixed for ARM.
 *** A bug with abtol has been fixed.
 *** Workarounds for building with gcc-12.2.0 have been added.

* Links
  [0] https://github.com/oriansj/stage0-posix
  [1] https://github.com/oriansj/bootstrap-seeds
  [2] https://archive.fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/gnumes/
  [3] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/log/?h=3Dwip-aarch64-boots=
trap
  [4] https://nlnet.nl/project/GNUMes-ARM_RISC-V
  [5] https://www.gnu.org/software/mes
  [6] https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2020/guix-further-reduces-bootstrap-seed-to=
-25
  [7] https://www.gnu.org/software/guix
  [8] https://bootstrappable.org
  [9] https://github.com/oriansj/m2-planet
  [10] https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/mescc-tools
  [11] https://github.com/schemeway/lalr-scm
  [12] https://www.cs.indiana.edu/chezscheme/syntax-case/old-psyntax.html
  [13] https://www.nongnu.org/nyacc
  [14] https://gitlab.com/janneke/tinycc
  [15] http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/book/LISP%201.5%20=
Programmers%20Manual.pdf
  [16] https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/stage0

=2D-=20
Janneke Nieuwenhuizen <janneke@gnu.org>  | GNU LilyPond https://LilyPond.org
Freelance IT https://www.JoyOfSource.com | Avatar=C2=AE https://AvatarAcade=
my.com

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Subject: stage0-uefi
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:15:57 +0200
Message-ID: <19600190.u2K1159ud7@laptop>
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Hi,

I would also like officially announce stage0-uefi project. This is a port of stage0-posix to run
directly on top of UEFI without any kernel.

At the moment only amd64 architecture is supported and even that is work in progress but
we already have all steps from hex0 and kaem-optional to cc_amd64 compiler working.
M2-libc changes are not done yet and are work in progress.

Kind regards,
Andrius

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Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: stage0-uefi
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 20:01:47 +0200
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To: bootstrappable@freelists.org
Subject: Re: [bootstrappable] stage0-uefi
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 20:01:47 +0200
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Sorry, forgot to add URL: https://git.stikonas.eu/andrius/stage0-uefi

2022 m. spalio 16 d., sekmadienis 11:15:57 CEST Andrius =C5=A0tikonas ra=C5=
=A1=C4=97:
> Hi,
>=20
> I would also like officially announce stage0-uefi project. This is a port=
 of stage0-posix to run
> directly on top of UEFI without any kernel.
>=20
> At the moment only amd64 architecture is supported and even that is work =
in progress but
> we already have all steps from hex0 and kaem-optional to cc_amd64 compile=
r working.
> M2-libc changes are not done yet and are work in progress.
>=20
> Kind regards,
> Andrius
>=20


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From: Askar Safin <safinaskar@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 12:03:04 +0300
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Subject: [bootstrappable] zuo - lisp in single 200k C file
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Look at project zuo: https://github.com/racket/zuo . This is a small
lisp family language implemented in a single 200k C file. It is
intentionally created with the goal of bootstrapping bigger lisp
implementation. It seems it is bigger than Mes. Still, zuo has some
advantages:
- It is single file. "cc zuo.c" is explicitly supported way of building
- It is a framework for building other languages. You should put
"#lang" directive at top of your file to tell what language this file
in

I think zuo may be useful in bootstrapping efforts

-- 
Askar Safin


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Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: zuo - lisp in single 200k C file
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 (message from Askar Safin on Sun, 27 Nov 2022 12:03:04 +0300)
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> I think zuo may be useful in bootstrapping efforts
well the 2 biggest benefits of Gnu Mes are:
1) able to be bootstrapped from M2-Planet
2) able to bootstrap TCC

> It is intentionally created with the goal of bootstrapping bigger lisp
> implementation.
So which bigger lisp can it bootstrap?

-Jeremiah


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From: Askar Safin <safinaskar@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 10:39:45 +0300
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Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: zuo - lisp in single 200k C file
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I'm not trying to replace Mes. I simply want to tell you about
interesting project.

> So which bigger lisp can it bootstrap?
All info is here: https://docs.racket-lang.org/zuo/index.html .

zuo.c is an implementation of "zuo/kernel" language, it is used to
bootstrap to "zuo/base" language. Build configs for racket lang
written in zuo/base.

-- 
Askar Safin


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Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: zuo - lisp in single 200k C file
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 (message from Askar Safin on Mon, 28 Nov 2022 10:39:45 +0300)
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> I'm not trying to replace Mes. I simply want to tell you about
> interesting project.
Thank you for clarifying, I guess I misunderstood your intent. My bad.

> zuo.c is an implementation of "zuo/kernel" language, it is used to
> bootstrap to "zuo/base" language. Build configs for racket lang
> written in zuo/base.
Ah so it already exists as a critical componet in the racket bootstrap
chain (for the build config bit of it).

Thank you for sharing ^_^

-Jeremiah




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Subject: [bootstrappable] How to talk to skeptics?
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From: "Bernhard M. Wiedemann" <bernhardout@lsmod.de>
To: bootstrappable@freelists.org,
 Simon Butler via rb-general <rb-general@lists.reproducible-builds.org>
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From: Vagrant Cascadian <vagrant@reproducible-builds.org>
To: rb-general@lists.reproducible-builds.org, bootstrappable@freelists.org
Subject: Re: How to talk to skeptics?
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On 2022-12-14, Bernhard M. Wiedemann via rb-general wrote:
> a colleague of mine is rather skeptic towards bootstrapping and=20
> reproducible-builds.
>
> E.g. he wrote
>
> https://fy.blackhats.net.au/blog/html/2021/05/12/compiler_bootstrapping_c=
an_we_trust_rust.html

This seems to miss the point that the sources *are* auditable, even if
after the fact, even if imperfectly, whereas the binaries are orders of
magnitude harder to audit.

Also curious how to address the bootstrapping problem if a compromised
binary ever worked its way into your blind trust of the upstream
provided binary compiler?

Even if downstream distributions such as OpenSUSE bootstrap from a
binary upstream compiler with each new rust version, I sure would hope
that upstream can *prove* beyond a reasonable doubt that what they
produced is legit in an auditable way... and while I am biased, it seems
a bootstrappable and reproducible build is the best current known way to
have very high confidence...


That many people use rustup to install rust and nothing has (noticeably)
gone horribly wrong yet does not win me over in any argument regarding
security. The https://rustup.rs recommendation of:

  curl ... | sh

... is relying on the weakest link in the chain of "trusted" certificate
authorities; a security vulnerability that is not so much a back door
vulnerability, as a wide open front door with the lights on in the dead
of night.


The argument that you can't trust the source code is a valid and
important concern, but outside the scope of reproducible builds, and
there are ways of addressing that through peer review of source code,
independent third-party review, and fastidious audit logs of who
committed what.

The bugdoor argument kind of falls down eventually, because logically,
if someone can trivially inject plausible but incorrect source code (and
well...  I guess they can), why bother reviewing source code at all? Why
bother tracking who committed it at all? Since it is impossible to
perfectly review source code, may as well not do any kind of review at
all... right? Uh, no.

All review and auditing processes will catch some bugs, and all security
measures raise the bar by some degree... using all known best practices
will catch as much as we can plausibly catch with our non-infinite
resources, despite being imperfect.


I wonder if the reproducible builds focus on bit-for-bit identical
perfection gets peoples head stuck in the idea of perfection in all
ways? While bit-for-bit identical builds are possible, we do not claim
it is absolute, incontrovertable proof of a perfect build. It just just
one measure of confidence amoung many. A good measure, in my opinion,
but just one tool.


Compromised compilers most definitely have been released into the
wild. It is getting a little old now, but XcodeGhost (a.k.a. Strawhorse)
falls squarely into this category:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XcodeGhost

Even without more current examples, even though it is difficult to pull
off... it is clearly possible, has been done, and been executed by well
funded entities in the past... and is, by design, hard to detect. I have
no reason to believe that was a one-off playground experiment.


And yes, you eventually get down to how do you trust hardware... there
are a lot of rabbit holes here, and at the end of the day, you need to
prioritize what is the next important thing is, or what gets you the
most value in the short, medium and long term.

Bootstrappable and Reproducible Builds is probably more in the medium to
long term realm... yet can demonstrate some benefits almost
immediately... if you only focus on the short term, the long-term work
will never happen. I daresay that what the world needs now is a bit more
long-term thinking in general.


> and the effect can also be seen in his packaging such as
> https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/openSUSE:Factory/rust1.65
> that ships with two gigabytes of bootstrap compiler binaries for various=
=20
> architectures instead of using our existing rust packages of version N-1=
=20
> "because compilation takes twice as long".
>
> He also once pointed me to
> https://blog.cmpxchg8b.com/2020/07/you-dont-need-reproducible-builds.html

And for a more light-hearted take...

You don't *need* computers either. :)

In a similar vein:

  https://xkcd.com/2368/

Especially I think the alt-text nailed it.


> In the end, it would be useful to collect some well-worded /=20
> well-thought counter-arguments on r-b.o (if we don't have that already)
>
> https://reproducible-builds.org/docs/buy-in/ could provide some input.
>
> Any thoughts and/or volunteers?


I think Morten Linderud had really good points when this came up before:

  https://lists.reproducible-builds.org/pipermail/rb-general/2020-August/00=
2008.html


live well,
  vagrant

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Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: How to talk to skeptics?
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> We already fully trust the sources they release, and we already fully
> trust their binary compiler releases.
Well that assumption is 100% wrong.

Trusting source code is the wrong place to place trust.
And trusting binaries is just a bad idea in general.

But for the people who do choose to trust binaries, reproducible builds
is the only option you have to check if the source and the binaries
correspond.

And even that comes with restrictions to make it semi-safe.

Think of Reproducible builds as condoms; used incorrectly it doesn't
protect you. But proper use reduces the risks you are exposed to if you
choose to trust binaries downloaded onto your system.

Then think of Bootstrappable builds as STD contract tracing; if none of
the people you have sex with has Herpes and you know everyone they had
sex with back until the dawn of time, there is no way for you to get
herpes from the actions you engage in, even if they aren't reproducible
(no condom used).

In an ideal world, we would be bootstrapping entirely from a seed we
ourselves make in a few hundred bytes toggled into memory. But we need
to be practical because other people will never choose to do that. So
choosing to make our work reproducible and having a clear bootstrapping
path, is a way of showing we care about others. Giving those engaging in
risky behaviors a better chance of not catching anything they don't want
or didn't opt into.

But that is just my biased (as fuck) view on this.

-Jeremiah


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Subject: Re: [bootstrappable] How to talk to skeptics?
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> We already fully trust the sources they release, and we already fully
> trust their binary compiler releases.
Well that assumption is 100% wrong.

Trusting source code is the wrong place to place trust.
And trusting binaries is just a bad idea in general.

But for the people who do choose to trust binaries, reproducible builds
is the only option you have to check if the source and the binaries
correspond.

And even that comes with restrictions to make it semi-safe.

Think of Reproducible builds as condoms; used incorrectly it doesn't
protect you. But proper use reduces the risks you are exposed to if you
choose to trust binaries downloaded onto your system.

Then think of Bootstrappable builds as STD contract tracing; if none of
the people you have sex with has Herpes and you know everyone they had
sex with back until the dawn of time, there is no way for you to get
herpes from the actions you engage in, even if they aren't reproducible
(no condom used).

In an ideal world, we would be bootstrapping entirely from a seed we
ourselves make in a few hundred bytes toggled into memory. But we need
to be practical because other people will never choose to do that. So
choosing to make our work reproducible and having a clear bootstrapping
path, is a way of showing we care about others. Giving those engaging in
risky behaviors a better chance of not catching anything they don't want
or didn't opt into.

But that is just my biased (as fuck) view on this.

-Jeremiah

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From: Askar Safin <safinaskar@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 13:41:01 +0300
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Subject: [bootstrappable] Sad news: Zig project recently deleted their bootstrap compiler
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Hi. Here is news relevant for bootstrappable project: 10 days ago the
Zig project announced they deleted their bootstrap C++ compiler:
https://ziglang.org/news/goodbye-cpp/ . Now they bootstrap everything
from webassembly binary. The author acknowledges that now it is hard
to bootstrap from human-written sources, but (unfortunately) says he
is not planning to change the situation. He says that anybody
interested may create an alternate compiler (written, say, in C++)

-- 
Askar Safin


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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www=
=2Ew3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"><html lang=3D"de" xml:lang=
=3D"en" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Co=
ntent-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1" /><title></title><s=
tyle type=3D"text/css">html,body{background-color:#fff;color:#333;line-heig=
ht:1.4;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;;}</style></head><body><p>H=
ello all</p>
<p>Yes that is true what Tristan wrote.</p>
<p>By myself I have introduced reproducible build approaches for controllin=
g software in plants, because I want to know whether the old given sources =
(from archive) firstly produces the same code which was delivered on plant =
in the past, before (!) I do some fixes. Why? The possibility that somethin=
g may be wrong cannot be excluded (faulty include path on build, changed to=
ols, confuse what are the real true sources,...).&nbsp;</p>
<p>If the new build delivers the exact same binary (after a long time, on m=
aybe changed environment), only then I am free to work on a fix, without tr=
ouble that some trouble comes to me because unknown reasons.</p>
<p>After fix the sources, it is also nice to compare for example Object fil=
es, or parts of binaries, which should not be changed, whether they are rea=
lly not changed.&nbsp;</p>
<p>The benefit comes on test. In my understandment, if a binary is changed =
and it is unknown what is impacted, ALL functionality should be tested (a h=
igh effort on plant software). But if I am sure that some binaries are not =
changed, there behavior is expectable the same, and I can prove to the orga=
nizers of the plant test, which tests are really necessary, and which shoul=
d be only tested with reduced effort. And this saves many money (time of te=
st hours) - or can be used with the same time budget to more elaborately te=
st the really sophisticated thinks.&nbsp;</p>
<p>That I have done by myself as software developer, only by tuning some co=
nditions for build (for example using anytime exact the same drive and path=
 of sources, the paths are written in Objects, and influences also the bina=
ries) - some years ago. I hope other colleague of this team (I am yet outsi=
de) have understand this approach, unfortunatelly it was never in focus of =
adminstration. Reproducible build seems to be not in focus of software mana=
gement in most companies. That is the problem.&nbsp;</p>
<p>I hope I have well contributed in thinking about this topics.</p>
<p>Best regards from Hartmut Schorrig, Germany. My own web page is <a href=
=3D"http://www.vishia.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow noopener">www=
=2Evishia.org</a></p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<div ></div>
<p>Tristan van Berkom schrieb am 17.12.2022 07:04 (GMT +01:00):</p>
<blockquote cite=3D"mid:8c4653e2b6524949ded717615da6cc78c6b7a91c.camel@code=
think.co.uk">
<pre>Hello Bernhard,

Due to my propensity to writing overly long and detailed emails, I have
refrained until now from ever posting to this list, I'll try to be
brief :)

Some background, I am an author and maintainer of the BuildStream
project: <a href=3D"https://buildstream.build/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"no=
follow noopener" title=3D"https://buildstream.build/">https://buildstream=
=2Ebuild/</a>

Which is an integration (build orchestration) tool we developed at
Codethink, some of our primary goals are:

  o Build repeatability:

      The ability to repeat the build process which led to producing
      a given build result in perpetuity.

  o Build reproducibility:

      Providing an environment which is most conducive to bit-for-bit
      reproducibility of builds (the reason I follow this list).

And various other things, we aim to solve the build problem for complex
integrated systems in a way that is decoupled from the payload you are
building, instead of being another build solution that is developed as
an afterthought of creating a distribution (payload).

As such, we have over the years developed some rhetoric in favor or
build reproducibility.

On Wed, 2022-12-14 at 20:30 +0100, Bernhard M. Wiedemann via rb-general=20
wrote:
&gt; Hi,
&gt;=20
&gt; a colleague of mine is rather skeptic towards bootstrapping and=20
&gt; reproducible-builds.
&gt;=20
[...]

I'm mainly posting here today to say that I find it confusing that in
the recent couple years, the argumentation in support of build
reproducibility on this list appears to have been solely focused on
security.

I think it started with a thread on this list where it was claimed that
reproducibility would have prevented a notorious supply chain attack
(which arguably it could have been, and perhaps arguably other measures
could have prevented such, and perhaps taking all measures to prevent
supply chain attacks is a good idea).

While this security related rhetoric is compelling, I feel that it
leaves out other important aspects.

To my mind, one of the bigger value adds of having reproducibility is
in validation, more specifically the avoidance of expensive/extensive
validation of build artifacts which have not changed as the result of
upgrading some dependencies.

While of course unchanged binary executables still require validation
against changed execution contexts (e.g. upgraded kernel, or changed
adjacent services this binary may talk to over some IPC), simply
knowing which build artifacts have changed as a result of some
underlying changes brings huge value in validation.

Another point worth making in the security and safety related spaces,
is that while some arguments can be made for the trust in a binary
itself based on its reproducibility in varied build contexts (which
seems to be along the lines argued in the "you dont need..." link
provided in this thread), there is the opposite argument which can be
made that reproducibility itself serves as a valuable interrogation of
the supply chain and build environment.

In other words, having reproducible builds in your organization can be
used as evidence to demonstrate that your organization does indeed have
strict control over all build inputs and infrastructure, and non-
reproducible outputs serves as an alarm which tells you that something
might be compromised (non-deterministic contaminants were introduced
somehow, perhaps by way of random source code/data being downloaded
from the internet).

I'll also provide this link to an article by our team, outlining a
project where build reproducibility played a large part in our ability
to acquire an ISO 26262 certification:

    <a href=3D"https://www.codethink.co.uk/articles/2021/deterministic-cons=
truction-service/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow noopener" title=3D"htt=
ps://www.codethink.co.uk/articles/2021/deterministic-construction-service/"=
>https://www.codethink.co.uk/articles/2021/deterministic-construction-servi=
ce/</a>

Feel free to take or leave anything from this, just felt by now it was
time to throw in 2 cents ;-)

Cheers,
    -Tristan



</pre>
</blockquote></body></html>

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From: Jeremiah@pdp10.guru
To: bootstrappable@freelists.org
Cc: bootstrappable@freelists.org
Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: Sad news: Zig project recently deleted their
 bootstrap compiler
In-Reply-To: <CAPnZJGCh4hYLnXxWz74NRV5KhSE3PiDxvYp4L+RBkLqEQAzHxA@mail.gmail.com>
 (message from Askar Safin on Sat, 17 Dec 2022 13:41:01 +0300)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 15:03:55 +0000
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> 10 days ago the Zig project announced they deleted their bootstrap C++
> compiler
Well we knew this day was coming. The most important question is can the
last commit of the C++ code build a version of zig capable of building
the current zig source code? If so, we can use a guix build chain to
keep that bootstrap path alive until someone picks up the task.

If not, then we have a serious problem.

-Jeremiah


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From: Askar Safin <safinaskar@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 18:19:21 +0300
Message-ID: <CAPnZJGCjRBY-Bk+cAPK=ODxSsOAV6i4LQUFSgD-z+MBeAOKBBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: Sad news: Zig project recently deleted their
 bootstrap compiler
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> The most important question is can the
> last commit of the C++ code build a version of zig capable of building
> the current zig source code?

I think that right now the last commit of C++ code can build the last
commit of zig code. Later a chain can be constructed.

Also, that link ( https://ziglang.org/news/goodbye-cpp/ ) says that
wasm binary will be updated (when needed) using command "zig build
update-zig1". Obviously, such updates are exactly chain links
-- 
Askar Safin


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To: "bootstrappable@freelists.org" <bootstrappable@freelists.org>
Subject: [bootstrappable] stage0-uefi
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 22:13:32 +0000
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To: "bootstrappable@freelists.org" <bootstrappable@freelists.org>
Subject: stage0-uefi
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 22:13:32 +0000
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Hi,

I would like to announce that stage0-uefi now runs to completion.

stage0-uefi is a port of stage0-posix [1] to UEFI.
Its purpose is to start with a tiny binary seeds hex0.efi and kaem-optional.efi [2] that can be manually inspected and use it to build C toolchain and some extra tools
such as untar, ungz, unbz2, mkdir, sha256sum. stage0-uefi can be trivially extended to also build POSIX binaries.

You can try running stage0-uefi either in QEMU (make qemu) or copy the same FAT32 image to USB stick and run in on baremetal.
In case of QEMU, you might have to install edk2-ovmf which is a free implementation of UEFI firmware.

Se README [3] for more thorough description of various build steps.

Best,
Andrius

[1] https://github.com/oriansj/stage0-posix
[2] https://github.com/oriansj/bootstrap-seeds/tree/master/UEFI/amd64
[3] https://git.stikonas.eu/andrius/stage0-uefi/src/branch/main/README.md

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Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: stage0-uefi
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> I would like to announce that stage0-uefi now runs to completion.
Amazing work.

Impressively done.

-Jeremiah


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Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2023 19:30:34 +0100
From: Julien Lepiller <julien@lepiller.eu>
To: Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org>
Cc: bootstrappable@freelists.org, Phil Morrell <debian@emorrp1.name>
Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: Fwd: Bootstrapping Kotlin from scratch in
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Le Thu, 5 Jan 2023 22:16:16 +0100,
Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org> a =C3=A9crit :

> Hi Julien,
>=20
> Le 05/01/2023 =C3=A0 21:26, Julien Lepiller a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
>=20
> > I'd like to announce I managed to reproduce Emmanuel's bootstrap
> > chain (from https://github.com/ebourg/kotlin-bootstrapping) in Guix
> > (currently, in a separate channel,
> > https://framagit.org/tyreunom/guix-android/-/blob/master/android/packag=
es/kotlin.scm#L919).
> > It's even completely bootstrapped, meaning I managed to build the
> > same chain, but removing all the *.jar files from the sources prior
> > to build, replacing them with my own packages :) =20
>=20
> Well done!
>=20
>=20
> > Emmanuel, if you're still around, I'm interested in continuing the
> > bootstrap chain. Do you remember how you were able to find the next
> > version to build? =20
>=20
> It's basically a lot of git bissect to find the highest tag buildable
> by the previous version build. I start from the current working tag=20
> (currently 0.12.470), then I jump forward by 0.0.100 to find a tag
> that no longer build (for example 0.12.602), and I bisect to find the
> commit that broke the build (I stopped at 0.12.552, with the
> subsequent commit 5ec457684 breaking the build). The failure can be
> caused by a compiler change or by a dependency upgrade, so it's
> important to inspect the commit to understand what to do next.
>=20
> Let me know if you manage to push further, I'm curious to see if this=20
> exercise can go to the end.
>=20
> Emmanuel Bourg
>=20
>=20

I think these tags are created automatically by CI, in chronological
order instead of semantic versionning or whatever. So if you list all
tags from the repo (via github or whatever), you might end up in a dead
end because you're building something that's from an old feature branch.

(also you'll sometimes notice tags are going back on the master
branch...)

Looking at tags from master only seems to work better. Doing so, I was
able to build up to 0.12.852 (using different dependencies). In fact, I
went as far as 1.0.0-beta-2002 (from october 2015) with:

0.12.470
intellij-community-143
0.12.852
0.12.1077
0.12.1250
0.12.1287
0.13.177
0.13.791
0.13.899
0.13.1118
0.13.1304
0.14.209
0.14.398
0.15.8
0.15.269
0.15.519
0.15.604
0.15.723
1.0.0-beta-2002 (this may not be the most recent I can build with
0.15.723, but 1.0.0-beta-2313 fails)

Dependencies changed a bit in between versions, but it shouldn't pose
you any issues, since pre-built versions should be present in intellij.
Apart from jansi which fails inside the build environment for some
reason, I was able to bootstrap all of them. I also had to patch some
of the intermediate versions above because they would fail on incorrect
type (possibly null when not null was expected). This is probably due
to ABI changes between intellij 143 and the intellij 142 version these
versions are expecting. The patch was simply to add a check for null
and throw an exception in that case. Type inference will do the rest.

I'm stopping here for now, because I want to clean things up a bit and
commit the current chain. I'll resume work once that's done :)


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From: Julien Lepiller <julien@lepiller.eu>
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Subject: [bootstrappable] =?US-ASCII?Q?Re=3A_=5Bbootstrappable=5D_Re=3A_Fwd=3A_Bootst?= =?US-ASCII?Q?rapping_Kotlin_from_scratch_in_Debian?=
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Le 17 janvier 2023 14:54:10 GMT+01:00, Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache=2Eorg=
> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
> KotlinCoreEnvironment=2Ekt:116:61: error: type mismatch: inferred type i=
s com=2Eintellij=2Epsi=2EPsiManager? but com=2Eintellij=2Epsi=2EPsiManager =
was expected
>     [javac2]         annotationsManager =3D CoreExternalAnnotationsManag=
er(project=2EgetComponent(javaClass<PsiManager>()))
>     [javac2]                                                            =
 ^
>
>I guess this is due to the SDK mismatch you mentioned?

Yes, you could patch it to something like:

val component =3D project=2EgetComponent(javaClass<PsiManager>())
if (component =3D=3D null)
  throw Exception("component is null")
annotaciontManager =3D CoreExternalAnnotationsManager(component)

This is required for a few more versions=2E

>
>Emmanuel Bourg


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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 20:52:25 +0100
From: Julien Lepiller <julien@lepiller.eu>
To: Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org>
Cc: bootstrappable@freelists.org, Phil Morrell <debian@emorrp1.name>
Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: Fwd: Bootstrapping Kotlin from scratch in
 Debian
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Le Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:05:44 +0100,
Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org> a =C3=A9crit :

> Le 2023-01-17 16:27, Julien Lepiller a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
>=20
> >> I guess this is due to the SDK mismatch you mentioned? =20
> >=20
> > Yes, you could patch it to something like:
> >=20
> > val component =3D project.getComponent(javaClass<PsiManager>())
> > if (component =3D=3D null)
> >   throw Exception("component is null")
> > annotaciontManager =3D CoreExternalAnnotationsManager(component)
> >=20
> > This is required for a few more versions. =20
>=20
> Got it, I worked around this by using the !! operator:
>=20
>     annotationsManager =3D=20
> CoreExternalAnnotationsManager(project.getComponent(javaClass<PsiManager>=
())!!)
>=20
>=20

Which shows I don't even know kotlin :D

That's great, and your patches fixed my issues with jansi too, so my
chain is fully bootstrapped again!


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Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 22:50:44 +0100
From: Julien Lepiller <julien@lepiller.eu>
To: Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org>
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Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: Fwd: Bootstrapping Kotlin from scratch in
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Le Wed, 18 Jan 2023 16:05:44 +0100,
Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org> a =C3=A9crit :

> I've replayed your path successfully, with a few tweaks to maximize
> each step but this didn't improve the number of steps.
>=20
>=20
> 0.15.723 can build up to 1.0.0-beta-2055, and the last part is=20
> straightforward:
>=20
>    1.0.0-beta-2055
>    1.0.0-beta-3070
>    1.0.0-beta-4091
>    1.0.0-beta-5010
>    1.0.0-beta-5604
>    1.0.0-dev-162
>    1.0.0

It seems there's an issue with the last ones. I'm not able to build
them because they try to build the kotlin-test target, which requires
junit. You don't seem to use it and the sources don't seem to have a
junit either. How does that work?


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From: Julien Lepiller <julien@lepiller.eu>
To: Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org>
Cc: bootstrappable@freelists.org, Phil Morrell <debian@emorrp1.name>
Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: Fwd: Bootstrapping Kotlin from scratch in
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Le Thu, 19 Jan 2023 16:56:01 +0100,
Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org> a =C3=A9crit :

> Le 2023-01-18 22:50, Julien Lepiller a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
>=20
> > It seems there's an issue with the last ones. I'm not able to build
> > them because they try to build the kotlin-test target, which
> > requires junit. You don't seem to use it and the sources don't seem
> > to have a junit either. How does that work? =20
>=20
> I did get a junit related error, but after the 1.0.0 tag.
> Adding junit-4.12.jar to ideaSDK/lib solved that.
>=20
> I've pushed a little further, the next steps are:
>=20
>    1.0.3-dev-184
>    1.1.0-dev-1023
>=20
> After 1.1.0-dev-1083 the protobuf classes are relocated
> to a different package, I haven't handled that yet.
>=20
> Emmanuel Bourg

Did you actually build 1.1.0-dev-1023 without issues? I'm getting a
frightening error message:

[java] libraries/stdlib/src/kotlin/text/Strings.kt:315:1: exception:
org.jetbrains.kotlin.codegen.CompilationException: Back-end (JVM)
Internal error: wrong code generated

Any ideas?


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Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2023 19:01:21 +0100
From: Julien Lepiller <julien@lepiller.eu>
To: Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org>
Cc: bootstrappable@freelists.org
Subject: [bootstrappable] Re: Fwd: Bootstrapping Kotlin from scratch in
 Debian
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Le Thu, 09 Feb 2023 08:24:31 +0100,
Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org> a =C3=A9crit :

> Le 2023-02-08 22:27, Julien Lepiller a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
>=20
> > Did you actually build 1.1.0-dev-1023 without issues? I'm getting a
> > frightening error message:
> >=20
> > [java] libraries/stdlib/src/kotlin/text/Strings.kt:315:1: exception:
> > org.jetbrains.kotlin.codegen.CompilationException: Back-end (JVM)
> > Internal error: wrong code generated
> >=20
> > Any ideas? =20
>=20
> Do you get this error when building 1.1.0-dev-1023 or when using it
> to build the next version? Do you have the log?
>=20
> Emmanuel Bourg

I get the attached error when building 1.1.0-dev-1023 using
1.0.3-dev-184.

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Subject: [bootstrappable] GNU Mes 0.24.2 released
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We are happy to announce the release of GNU Mes 0.24.2, representing 25
commits over nine months by four people.

This release should fix the long standing `stat64' bug #41264[0].

We are very grateful that the NLnet Foundation[1] is sponsoring this
work!

What's next?

Work to prototype this so-called "Full Source Bootstrap" for ARM on
Aarch64 is happening on the wip-aarch64-bootstrap[2] branch.  Also, full
Guile compatible module support, and RISC-V support.

Enjoy!

* About

  GNU Mes[3] is a Scheme interpreter and C compiler for bootstrapping
  the GNU System.  Since version 0.22 it has again helped to halve the
  size of opaque, uninspectable binary seeds that are currently being
  used in the Reduced Binary Seed bootstrap[4] of GNU Guix[5].  The
  final goal is to help create a full source bootstrap as part of the
  bootstrappable builds[6] effort for UNIX-like operating systems.

  The Scheme interpreter is written in ~5,000 LOC of simple C, and the C
  compiler written in Scheme and these are mutual self-hosting.  Mes can
  now be bootstrapped from M2-Planet[7] and Mescc-Tools[8].

  Mes has a Garbage Collector, a library of loadable Scheme modules--
  notably Dominique Boucher's LALR[9], Pre-R6RS portable
  syntax-case[10] with R7RS ellipsis, Matt Wette's Nyacc[11] --and test
  suite, just enough to support a REPL and a C99 compiler: mescc.

  Mes + MesCC + Mes C Library can build a bootstrappable TinyCC[12] that
  is self-hosting.  Using this tcc and the Mes C library we now have a
  Reduced Binary Seed bootstrap for the gnutools triplet: glibc-2.2.5,
  binutils-2.20.1, gcc-2.95.3.  This is enough to bootstrap Guix for
  i686-linux, x86_64-linux, armhf-linux and aarch64-linux.

  Mes is inspired by The Maxwell Equations of Software: LISP-1.5[13] --
  John McCarthy page 13, GNU Guix's source/binary packaging transparency
  and Jeremiah Orians's stage0[14] 357-byte self-hosting hex assembler.

* Download

  git clone git://git.savannah.gnu.org/mes.git

  Here are the compressed sources and a GPG detached signature[*]:
    https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mes/mes-0.24.2.tar.gz
    https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mes/mes-0.24.2.tar.gz.sig

  Use a mirror for higher download bandwidth:
    https://ftpmirror.gnu.org/mes/mes-0.24.2.tar.gz
    https://ftpmirror.gnu.org/mes/mes-0.24.2.tar.gz.sig

  Here are the SHA1 and SHA256 checksums:

  30b0ce4cd37c87dca37b85a6c19646001881be46  mes-0.24.2.tar.gz
  7ddae0854e46ebfa18c13ab37e64839a7b86ea88aeed366a8d017efd11dae86e  mes-0.2=
4.2.tar.gz

  [*] Use a .sig file to verify that the corresponding file (without the
  .sig suffix) is intact.  First, be sure to download both the .sig file
  and the corresponding tarball.  Then, run a command like this:

    gpg --verify mes-0.24.2.tar.gz.sig

  If that command fails because you don't have the required public key,
  or that public key has expired, try the following commands to update
  or refresh it, and then rerun the 'gpg --verify' command.

    gpg --recv-keys 1A858392E331EAFDB8C27FFBF3C1A0D9C1D65273

* Get informed, get involved

  See https://bootstrappable.org
  Join #bootstrappable on irc.libera.chat

* NEWS
 * Changes in 0.24.2 since 0.24.1
 ** Build
 *** A number of compile warnings have been fixed.
 *** The `simple.make' and `simple.sh' builds have been resurrected.
 ** MesCC
 *** Some assembly defines were added for building TinyCC for x86_64.
 *** `__assert_fail' has been updated to use the standard signature.
 ** Noteworthy bug fixes
 *** A bootstrap build without M2-Planet is now supported again.
 *** `gettimeofday' no longer segfaults in the M2-Planet build.
 *** `stat64' and friends are now used on 32bit platforms.
 This fixes https://debbugs.gnu.org/41264, and should also fix
 https://debbugs.gnu.org/49985,
 https://debbugs.gnu.org/53415, and
 https://debbugs.gnu.org/53416.
 *** The Mes C Library now supports uppercase hex conversions.

* Links
  [0] https://debbugs.gnu.org/41264
  [1] https://nlnet.nl/project/GNUMes-ARM_RISC-V
  [2] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/log/?h=3Dwip-aarch64-boots=
trap
  [3] https://www.gnu.org/software/mes
  [4] https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2020/guix-further-reduces-bootstrap-seed-to=
-25
  [5] https://www.gnu.org/software/guix
  [6] https://bootstrappable.org
  [7] https://github.com/oriansj/m2-planet
  [8] https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/mescc-tools
  [9] https://github.com/schemeway/lalr-scm
  [10] https://www.cs.indiana.edu/chezscheme/syntax-case/old-psyntax.html
  [11] https://www.nongnu.org/nyacc
  [12] https://gitlab.com/janneke/tinycc
  [13] http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/book/LISP%201.5%20=
Programmers%20Manual.pdf
  [14] https://github.com/oriansj/stage0-posix

=2D-=20
Janneke Nieuwenhuizen <janneke@gnu.org>  | GNU LilyPond https://LilyPond.org
Freelance IT https://www.JoyOfSource.com | Avatar=C2=AE https://AvatarAcade=
my.com

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From: Janneke Nieuwenhuizen <janneke@gnu.org>
To: info-gnu@gnu.org
Cc: bug-mes@gnu.org
Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org
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Subject: GNU Mes 0.24.2 released
Organization: AvatarAcademy.nl
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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2023 09:34:41 +0100
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We are happy to announce the release of GNU Mes 0.24.2, representing 25
commits over nine months by four people.

This release should fix the long standing `stat64' bug #41264[0].

We are very grateful that the NLnet Foundation[1] is sponsoring this
work!

What's next?

Work to prototype this so-called "Full Source Bootstrap" for ARM on
Aarch64 is happening on the wip-aarch64-bootstrap[2] branch.  Also, full
Guile compatible module support, and RISC-V support.

Enjoy!

* About

  GNU Mes[3] is a Scheme interpreter and C compiler for bootstrapping
  the GNU System.  Since version 0.22 it has again helped to halve the
  size of opaque, uninspectable binary seeds that are currently being
  used in the Reduced Binary Seed bootstrap[4] of GNU Guix[5].  The
  final goal is to help create a full source bootstrap as part of the
  bootstrappable builds[6] effort for UNIX-like operating systems.

  The Scheme interpreter is written in ~5,000 LOC of simple C, and the C
  compiler written in Scheme and these are mutual self-hosting.  Mes can
  now be bootstrapped from M2-Planet[7] and Mescc-Tools[8].

  Mes has a Garbage Collector, a library of loadable Scheme modules--
  notably Dominique Boucher's LALR[9], Pre-R6RS portable
  syntax-case[10] with R7RS ellipsis, Matt Wette's Nyacc[11] --and test
  suite, just enough to support a REPL and a C99 compiler: mescc.

  Mes + MesCC + Mes C Library can build a bootstrappable TinyCC[12] that
  is self-hosting.  Using this tcc and the Mes C library we now have a
  Reduced Binary Seed bootstrap for the gnutools triplet: glibc-2.2.5,
  binutils-2.20.1, gcc-2.95.3.  This is enough to bootstrap Guix for
  i686-linux, x86_64-linux, armhf-linux and aarch64-linux.

  Mes is inspired by The Maxwell Equations of Software: LISP-1.5[13] --
  John McCarthy page 13, GNU Guix's source/binary packaging transparency
  and Jeremiah Orians's stage0[14] 357-byte self-hosting hex assembler.

* Download

  git clone git://git.savannah.gnu.org/mes.git

  Here are the compressed sources and a GPG detached signature[*]:
    https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mes/mes-0.24.2.tar.gz
    https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/mes/mes-0.24.2.tar.gz.sig

  Use a mirror for higher download bandwidth:
    https://ftpmirror.gnu.org/mes/mes-0.24.2.tar.gz
    https://ftpmirror.gnu.org/mes/mes-0.24.2.tar.gz.sig

  Here are the SHA1 and SHA256 checksums:

  30b0ce4cd37c87dca37b85a6c19646001881be46  mes-0.24.2.tar.gz
  7ddae0854e46ebfa18c13ab37e64839a7b86ea88aeed366a8d017efd11dae86e  mes-0.2=
4.2.tar.gz

  [*] Use a .sig file to verify that the corresponding file (without the
  .sig suffix) is intact.  First, be sure to download both the .sig file
  and the corresponding tarball.  Then, run a command like this:

    gpg --verify mes-0.24.2.tar.gz.sig

  If that command fails because you don't have the required public key,
  or that public key has expired, try the following commands to update
  or refresh it, and then rerun the 'gpg --verify' command.

    gpg --recv-keys 1A858392E331EAFDB8C27FFBF3C1A0D9C1D65273

* Get informed, get involved

  See https://bootstrappable.org
  Join #bootstrappable on irc.libera.chat

* NEWS
 * Changes in 0.24.2 since 0.24.1
 ** Build
 *** A number of compile warnings have been fixed.
 *** The `simple.make' and `simple.sh' builds have been resurrected.
 ** MesCC
 *** Some assembly defines were added for building TinyCC for x86_64.
 *** `__assert_fail' has been updated to use the standard signature.
 ** Noteworthy bug fixes
 *** A bootstrap build without M2-Planet is now supported again.
 *** `gettimeofday' no longer segfaults in the M2-Planet build.
 *** `stat64' and friends are now used on 32bit platforms.
 This fixes https://debbugs.gnu.org/41264, and should also fix
 https://debbugs.gnu.org/49985,
 https://debbugs.gnu.org/53415, and
 https://debbugs.gnu.org/53416.
 *** The Mes C Library now supports uppercase hex conversions.

* Links
  [0] https://debbugs.gnu.org/41264
  [1] https://nlnet.nl/project/GNUMes-ARM_RISC-V
  [2] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/log/?h=3Dwip-aarch64-boots=
trap
  [3] https://www.gnu.org/software/mes
  [4] https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2020/guix-further-reduces-bootstrap-seed-to=
-25
  [5] https://www.gnu.org/software/guix
  [6] https://bootstrappable.org
  [7] https://github.com/oriansj/m2-planet
  [8] https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/mescc-tools
  [9] https://github.com/schemeway/lalr-scm
  [10] https://www.cs.indiana.edu/chezscheme/syntax-case/old-psyntax.html
  [11] https://www.nongnu.org/nyacc
  [12] https://gitlab.com/janneke/tinycc
  [13] http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/book/LISP%201.5%20=
Programmers%20Manual.pdf
  [14] https://github.com/oriansj/stage0-posix

=2D-=20
Janneke Nieuwenhuizen <janneke@gnu.org>  | GNU LilyPond https://LilyPond.org
Freelance IT https://www.JoyOfSource.com | Avatar=C2=AE https://AvatarAcade=
my.com

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From: Askar Safin <safinaskar@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2023 14:37:10 +0300
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Subject: [bootstrappable] selfie - An educational software system of a tiny self-compiling C compiler...
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Look at this cool project:
https://github.com/cksystemsteaching/selfie

"About" says:
An educational software system of a tiny self-compiling C compiler, a
tiny self-executing RISC-V emulator, and a tiny self-hosting RISC-V
hypervisor

-- 
Askar Safin


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From: Askar Safin <safinaskar@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2023 14:40:14 +0300
Message-ID: <CAPnZJGD0ga3+ifCFvwhukm43juo=7=dHd7rWGFgoRw-9F2SLjA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Please, allow posting to bootstrappable list without subscription